Ultimate 529 College Saving Guide (with Mark Willis)

Summary

In this episode, Anthony interviews Mark Willis. Mark is a Certified Financial Planner, a bestselling author, the host of the award-winning podcast, Not Your Average Financial Podcast, and the owner of Lake Growth Financial Services. He specializes in late-stage college savings planning and today he shares how to pay for college without going broke.

Covered Topics

  • What is a 529
  • The tax break areas of 529
  • Where you can spend 529 funds
  • FAFSA (Free Application for Federal Student Aid)
  • The complementary and supplementary mechanics for saving for college

Show Notes

  • 00:19 – Anthony introduces Mark
  • 01:24 – What is a 529
    • Tax Code 529: An investment account marked for qualified educational expenses
  • 02:34 – The tax break areas of 529
    • Some states consider 529 as tax deductible
    • Money grows on 529 is tax deferred
    • Tax-free withdrawals may include $10K tuition fee expenses
  • 04:05 – The importance of tax-deferred growth
  • 05:53 – Mark recommends to check out SavingForCollege.com
  • 06:69 – How an IRA and a 529 is different from each other
  • 09:38 – The deadline for filing 529: April 15th but differs from one state to another
  • 10:28 – Where you can spend 529 funds
    • Elementary/Secondary Schools
    • College/Graduate/Trade Schools
  • 11:31 – “As long as you don’t exceed the qualified education expenses, you’re pretty well, good to go”
  • 12:52 – Taking a semester overseas
  • 13:47 – FAFSA (Free Application for Federal Student Aid)
    • Expected Family Contribution = Total Cost of the School – Grants & Scholarships
    • No family contribution means student loans
  • 16:09 – How to get help for FAFSA
    • College funding specialists
  • 17:19 – 529 for different children
    • Rolling over/transferring funds
    • One tax-free rollover in a 12-month period
  • 20:11 – Mark shares the complementary and supplementary mechanics for saving for college
    • If the student drops out, your money will be held until retirement age
    • The only exit for 529 is any kind of education
    • The funds available underperform the market
    • Always get the tax deductions
    • Buy real estate in the town where your student will live in
    • Divided-paying whole life insurance
  • 27:45 – Connect with Mark on Not Your Average Financial Podcast

Takeaways

  • Without 529’s, the student’s option for college is through student loans.
  • Funds sometimes underperform the market so it’s best to always check performance.
  • Your options should not be either/or but both/and — maximize every dollar you can.

Link and Resources

  • SavingForCollege.com – A website that gives calculations for tuition fees and possible 529 outcomes

Contact

Call or text 212-401-2990 if you’d like to work with Anthony (or any of our guests).

Full Transcript

ANTHONY: Today let’s talk about how to pay for college without going broke. Many of us have kids and we value education. We want the best for our kids, but how do we get from where we are now to having enough for, you know, the ever-growing college and education costs for our beloved little ones? And that’s why I’m talking with Mark Willis. Mark, thanks for joining us.

MARK: Thank you for having me.

ANTHONY: Let me tell you a little bit about Mark and why he’s really gonna help us out here. Mark is a certified financial planner. He is a best-selling author. He’s also the host of an award-winning podcast called Not Your Average Financial Podcast. And he’s the owner of Lake Growth Financial Services in Chicago, and one of his many specialties is late, I think it’s late-stage college savings planning. Did I get that right, Mark?

MARK: You got it, yeah, late-stage college planning for parents who have kids in, you know, high school, sophomore/juniors, and even sometimes seniors if we can help ’em out.

ANTHONY: I mean, that’s kinda late, so I hope our listeners are getting on the ball a little sooner than that, hopefully. So, Mark, thanks for jumping on. And we’re really trying to cover your questions, listeners, because a lot of you have asked about 529s in particular. So we’re gonna make sure we cover that. And hopefully if we have time Mark will go into the next level of planning, or the next tier of options, because it’s not all about 529s. But 529s are important, so we’re gonna dive right into those right now. So, Mark, first and foremost, just sort of the high-level question, what is a 529 and why should people be thinking about it?

MARK: Yeah, it’s really just a part of the tax code, 529, Section 529, just like 401s are part of the tax code as well. And it’s essentially an investment account that’s specifically earmarked for qualified educational expenses. Typically, the Internal Revenue Service has given us certain deductions. In exchange for those certain deductions you can have certain qualifications that you have to meet, so hoops you have to jump through, strings that are attached to them, let’s say. But in exchange for those hoops that you jump through you get certain tax breaks and certain tax deductions for putting your money in those particular accounts and following those rules.

ANTHONY: We’ve talked in the past about IRAs and 401s, so I think the folks at home do have a sense of how these tax breaks work. But let’s talk about them specifically on 529s in what I like to think of as the three tax break areas, meaning when the money goes in, as the money grows, and when the money comes out. Can you talk about how 529s are impacted in those three areas?

MARK: Yeah, so when the money goes in, never are 529 contributions tax deductible on the federal level. However, some states may consider 529 contributions tax deductible. So I believe, for example, New York allows you to deduct, is it $5000 per child and up to $10,000, is that right, per year?

ANTHONY: That’s right.

MARK: And so each state has a different limit. I’m looking at, for example, Indiana, 20% of your contributions for a maximum of $1,000. And, you know, New Jersey is similarly listed. So, you know, what is New Jersey? You can put 7% deductions up to $5,000. So it’s just each state has its different rules effectively. Once the money is in there, the earnings in a 529 plan will grow tax-deferred and will not be taxed when the money is taken out if taken out for certain educational expenses. Qualified is the keyword there. So, you know, as of 2018, this year, actually, as we’re recording this, tax-free withdrawals may also include $10,000 in tuition expenses for even elementary schools and secondary schools, for example. So you could even possibly send your kids to a private school there in the state of New York. If your children are going to a private school, you could even consider your 529 as a resource for that.

ANTHONY: Before we jump ahead, let’s just for anyone who’s not familiar with the power of compounding, can you quickly describe why tax-deferred growth is so important?

MARK: Well, only if it comes out tax-free does it make any difference to be tax-deferred. So in other words, it makes no difference if you have a tax-deferred account or a after-tax account. If the distributions are taxable, then it makes no difference if you had a tax-deferred account or a tax-free account. The one exception is if you can take those dollars out and the earnings are also tax-free, then it makes a difference to your compounding. Speaking of distributions, 529 withdrawals are tax-free as long as the child, your kiddo, or other beneficiary, like if it’s a grandchild, for example, is taking out educational, qualified educational expenses. QHEE is what they call it, so the QHEE during that educational year. If you happen to take out from the 529 more than the QHEE, that excess withdraw is actually nonqualified. So that means you broke the law of the 529 plan. And then you would pay income taxes on the earnings and a 10% federal penalty on the earnings portion that you took out of the 529 above and beyond what the school said was qualified educational expenses. So the principal is actually what you put in there would not be subject to a tax. So that’s important to remember as well.

ANTHONY: If anything that you can’t spend on qualified educational expenses not only gets taxed but is potentially hit with a 10% surcharge or surtax, I’m not sure how to call that, does that advise you on making sure that you don’t overfund your 529? Do you talk to your clients about that?

MARK: Yeah, you know, with the cost of college going up, it is difficult to conceive of overfunding a 529 plan,you know? There’s a great website, savingforcollege.com, and they have a little college savings calculator. And, really, all you have to type in is the age of your child. And it, with relative accuracy, will tell you about what a private school will be, a public school will be, graduate school. It’ll total it all up, net out average scholarships and grants. It’s a, you know, I have no connection to the website. I just think it’s a really nice calculator. And, you know, you can sort of even calculate what it would take to put into a 529 to reach that number that your family will be expected to contribute.

ANTHONY: So let’s talk about the mechanics of where your money actually goes. And as a sort of point of reference or comparison, I’ll give an example of how one would go about setting up an IRA, and then you can talk about how setting up your 529 might be different depending on which state you’re in. So if I wanted to set up my own IRA, I could pretty much go to any financial institution I wanted to whether it be E-Trade, Vanguard, Chase, Bank of America, what have you, open up an account. But it would be, it would just be a certain type of account. Instead of an account in my own name, it would be a qualified IRA account. And then once that’s set up I can kinda do whatever I want in there, whether it’s a CD, interest-bearing savings account, which would not be a good idea, or a brokerage or investment account. So it’s pretty flexible. I can choose any bank and pretty much put anything in there that I want. Tell me how a 529 is different, please.

MARK: There are hundreds of 529 plans, and the hardest part is just picking which one. You know, there are prepaid 529 plans. There’s savings 529 plans. You know, it really comes down to how complex do you want this decision to be. So, you know, I know that this is Simple Money Wins, so let’s keep it simple. You’d wanna pick, you know, the simplest, most straightforward plan that makes sense that you don’t have to watch or track. If you, like many listeners, have a full-time job and trying to take care of kids, maybe or maybe not is it your full-time job to manage the stocks, bonds, or other securities inside a 529. Most 529s simply give you a limited set of mutual funds to pick from. And so, you know, you might call up Vanguard, for example, not to pick them out by name, but there’s Fidelity. There’s TD Ameritrade. They all have 529s, and you’d want to choose whether it’s gonna be in-state or out-of-state. So if you have a state tax benefit, like in New York, you might be better off picking the in-state plan. And again, some of these financial institutions even have a state calculator to tell you whether or not to do in-state or out-of-state. So it makes it super easy for you there.

ANTHONY: What happens if you’re in New York, and one of the main reasons you’re doing this is to get that 5,000 or $10,000 per year deduction, do you have to go in-state or do you still get that deduction if you choose a 529 from out-of-state?

MARK: Well, you know, unfortunately it comes down to the state, whether that state is willing to accept monies leaving their state and still giving you a deduction. That’d be very generous of many states to offer that. Usually, you have to put the dollars into a New York 529, which may or may not be in your child’s best interest. You just have to kind of determine what are the funds available inside that 529. Are the performances and, crucially, are the fees on those funds more than making up for the tax benefit or loss of choosing an in-state or out-of-state 529? So it comes down to the numbers.

ANTHONY: In terms of timing, I know IRAs, first of all you should be doing, you know, monthly direct deposits and that sort of automating it, but let’s assume you haven’t done that. IRAs, your deadline for getting your full contribution in is actually the tax filing date. So for tax year, let’s say, 2018, we have until April 15th of next year to complete our IRA contribution. Is that the same for 529s, do you know?

MARK: You know, unfortunately, I don’t have a short answer for you on that. You know, as far as the deadline, my memory says per the state income tax deduction, I know that the deadline is April 15th. And since there are no federal, and that’s for, again, for most states. So again, it comes down to which state are we talkin’ about there? So as far as New York is concerned, I’m not sure off the top of my head.

ANTHONY: Well, for the listeners, the New York deadline is calendar year, December 31st, just to make it extra confusing. So we have a picture now for our listeners of, you know, the tax benefits of the 529, the mechanics of how you do it. So let’s talk about how you can spend this money once you’ve reached that time. What are some of the things that you can spend 529 funds on? You already mentioned elementary, and I think you said secondary school, is that right?

MARK: That’s right, mhmm, yep, as of just recently. That was a law that was just recently changed. And I think 2016, it made that shift.

ANTHONY: So originally, 529s were meant for college only, is that correct or did it also include graduate school?

MARK: Correct. Well, yeah, you can go to graduate school using 529 monies.

ANTHONY: And what about, this might be going trying to stretch the definitions a little bit, but can 529s be used for trade school, such as a, what is it, electricians, plumbers, et cetera?

MARK: Yep, so private colleges, state universities, local community colleges, even seminaries, trade schools, even culinary, beauty school, international school sometimes. Just depends on whether or not the institution qualifies as an eligible institution.

ANTHONY: So far I think we’ve both been talking about tuition, yeah? What about things that are part of your educational costs that are not going directly to the registrar, such as books, computers, food, meal plans, things like that?

MARK: The rule of thumb is as long as you don’t exceed the qualified educational expenses you’re pretty well good to go. So a meal plan is a tricky one. You know, a 529 plan isn’t a free pass for everything you could eat in the town where your college is at, right? You couldn’t put a beer tab on a 529, for example. But, you know, computers and related equipment, that’s certainly possible, you know, if they’re used primarily for education and those purposes. Software, maybe, and games, you know, other software you might install on there would be excluded unless that software is really predominantly educational. So technically, you could be audited for your expenses on these 529 plans. So, yes, you can include a meal plan if it’s on campus and if you’re living on campus. I think the, you know, if the cost of attendance for meals is $3000, then that’s what would be allowable, for example.

ANTHONY: What about housing and dorms?

MARK: As long as it’s part of that cost of attendance, you can include it. There are a number of things that do not qualify as expenses. But, you know, as far as our experience has shown us, you can qualify as long as it’s fitting in that cost of attendance sheet that usually you would receive as part of your acceptance to a university.

ANTHONY: What about studying overseas? I know a lot of kids like to take a semester abroad. Would that be covered?

MARK: Yeah, in general. Again, if that’s a eligible institution. So again, you know, anyone can set up shop and call themselves a university, but are they an eligible institution? And, you know, as far as where’s that full list of who makes the eligible institution list and who doesn’t, that’s beyond the scope of my understanding. I’d have to get back to you on that.

ANTHONY: Very good. That gives me at least a pretty good handle on how and what I can spend these funds on once the boy or the girl is up, you know, college age. How does the 529 fund, how does that affect financial aid? I don’t know if our listeners are familiar with FAFSA yet, but they will be soon

MARK: You bet, yeah, yeah, it’s gonna be what terrifies you in the middle of the night. It’s the stuff of nightmares

ANTHONY: What is, just in case folks don’t know, what is the FAFSA?

MARK: Free Application for Federal Student Aid. So actually, we are recording this, the very beginning of October. I don’t know when it’ll publish. But yesterday a gun went off somewhere and a race has begun for the new access to grants and available scholarships around this country. October 1st each year is when you can officially fill out the FAFSA, submit it, and start requesting the student aid, the Free Application for Federal Student Aid. It’s all schools that offer any kind of need-based financial aid requires students to complete that FAFSA form. And there are other forms also that can do. You know, maybe 200, 300 schools around the country that I’m aware of also ask for additional award forms called the CSS Profile, for example, is another one similar to the FAFSA. What happens when you fill out the FAFSA? Well, you know, they use the information that you plug in to the FAFSA to calculate what your expected family contribution, or EFC, is going to be. So essentially, it’s sort of like a calculation, you know, total cost of the price of the school, sticker price, minus any grants and scholarships, equals the expected family contribution. That’s kind of the roughest general calculation you could come up with. If the family can’t, or doesn’t want to contribute that EFC, then we’re looking at student loans and so forth.

ANTHONY: I like how you said sticker price like it’s a car. I love that.

MARK: Well, and very truly, we’ve found with a lot of our clients who are in late-stage college planning, we help them with filling out the FAFSA form and helping them get the very best price. You know, I’ve actually seen private schools cost less than in-state public universities when it comes down to the actual cost of attendance. It’s very different than the sticker price. You don’t have to pay full price. It’s sorta like an airplane, you know. When you get on an airplane, everyone paid a different price to get from New York to L.A., but they’re all going to the same destination. Does it really matter, right?

ANTHONY: So you mentioned, as you were describing the different elements of the FAFSA, my head was kind of swirling and I can imagine that it’s kind of like filling out your taxes. And in this day and age, yeah, nobody does their own taxes. They either use software or they hire a professional. What are the options for getting help with the FAFSA? Do they go to someone like you?

MARK: You know, there’s recently, in the last 10 or 15 years or so, there’s been new specialists and even credentials around college funding specialists. So along with me being a certified financial planner, I’ve also gone through some credentials to be a college funding specialist. And it’s different than a high school counselor. It’s different than, you know, just a typical investment advisor. This is someone who helps you with the appeal letters, getting a better score on your SAT/ACT, helping you with career choice, helping you with negotiating the price when colleges get back to you and give you a certain award letter. You can negotiate that between the different schools that you’ve been accepted to. And overall, again, it’s paying as little out of pocket for college as possible. And then as a financial planner, we also set up the very best funding vehicles that can help pay for what’s still remaining in your expected family contribution.

ANTHONY: I want to get back to the plans that you can use to complement or supplement your 529. But I have just two more points on 529s before we jump ahead. So are 529 accounts earmarked for a specific child? So I have a son and a daughter, and I have two accounts, one in my daughter’s name, one in my son’s name. Are those monies transferable at all? Can I, you know, if my son goes to a more expensive school than my daughter, can I move that money around in any way?

MARK: Yes, if both siblings have 529 plans. Well done for setting those up. You can consider even, it’s called a rollover, just like an IRA. Those would be tax-free as long as the same amount is contributed to the other sibling’s 529 plan within 60 days, so just like a regular IRA rollover. So the IRS allows one tax-free rollover, right, in a 12-month period. You can also change the beneficiary on your 529 plan. So if your older child is done with college and there’s money left in that 529 allocated to your oldest, then the plan will allow the account owner, that’d be you, to change the beneficiary to another family member, like your youngest, without tax consequences.

ANTHONY: Can we change it generationally, meaning let’s say all my kids are done and I have money left over, can I let it sit there and then change it to my grandkids at some later point? Is that at all possible?

MARK: Even yourself if you want to go back to school.

ANTHONY: And this is the last question that kind of ties in. Does a 529 ever expire? Is there ever a point where they’re like all right, you’ve had this long enough. You’re done with your education Pay us the 10%; you’re done here.

MARK: Well, you know, I know that the earnings portion of a nonqualified withdrawal is gonna be subject to that 10% penalty. And then any withdrawal you take out before you’re 60 years old, well, 59 1/2 is gonna be sorta your deadline date for spending that money. And then the money can come out without that 10% withdrawal penalty.

ANTHONY: Mark mentions RMD. That’s a required minimum distribution. We talked about that where once you reach a certain age, you have to take money out of your IRA. You know, you never know who’s listening and who’s not.

MARK: Well, so, you know, there’s actually some ways that grandparents can use RMDs from their IRAs to fund college savings for the grandkids. But I don’t know if 529s actually have, I’ve never had someone have money still sitting in a 529 plan when they were 70 years old for the beneficiary. The owner might be 70, like a grandparent. But, you know, the beneficiary typically has spent those dollars, or they’ve put them to other uses. Like, the parents might have taken it out for retirement money after they turned 59 1/2.

ANTHONY: I think that’s probably more a statement about the rising cost of college than anything else. I think that covers all the questions that my listeners had regarding 529s. But I know you have, you know, much more in-depth knowledge than just that one vehicle. Would you like to share with us some of the complementary or supplementary mechanics of saving for college?

MARK: Yeah, I mean, we’ve talked about are 529s worth it? I mean, in a lot of ways, yes. You can get those tax deductions, especially if you’re in a high income tax state. And that makes a big difference if you’re earning a good chunk of money right now. And then as long as the kid does go to school, then you came out ahead. If the child, for whatever reason, becomes the next Bill Gates or something and drops out of college or decides to start their own business, your money is gonna be locked up until you’re 60 years old unless you go back to college and use it yourself. So those penalties and taxes can be reducing your yield that you could have got elsewhere had you not put it inside a specifically engineered product for college. So again, it’s all about how flexible is the financial vehicle that we’re working with. And is it, overall, is it helping us or is it tying our hands? You know, what’s my exit plan? As an estate attorney I know you’ve got a, you’re thinking exit strategy for just about every area of your clients’ lives. What is my exit strategy for this 529? What if the kiddo invents the cure for cancer and doesn’t need to go to school? What if? I guess you won’t have much money problems if your child is the one that cures cancer. It won’t matter if you have a 10% penalty, I guess, at that point.

ANTHONY: But you’re right, it is a very narrow exit because there’s kind of only one, I mean, with IRAs and 401s, you can borrow against your accounts to, I think for a first-time home buying. Any escape patches like that for the 529?

MARK: No, unfortunately, no. There’s really only one exit and that is education of some kind. So when folks realize that, you know, they kinda get upset with the 529. Again, it has its purpose. It’s like a hammer. You know, it should be used with things that hammers are good to use with, like nails, but it shouldn’t be used to, you know, cut a steak, for example. It’s one one-trick pony, I guess I should say. So there are others out there. Similar accounts like the UGMA and UTMA, those are Uniform Gift to Minors Act and the Uniform Transfer to Minors Act. Those have similar but different realities where the money is actually given to the minor, your child, and then it’s their asset. And when they turn 18 or 21, depending, they have full ownership and can spend that money any way they choose, including college or a business or a car, you know, or a stereo So be careful how you give them that money. The other thing that I’ve seen as a limitation of 529s is that generally speaking, the funds available underperform the overall market, and they are typically higher in fees than a typical brokerage fund might offer you, or as, you know, index fund might offer you. So keep an eye on performance. Go to FINRA Fund Analyzer to evaluate how much it’s gonna cost you to buy those funds, especially the ones that are target-date funds, if you know what those are. Those are where the funds generally get more and more conservative as you reach some sort of target date, like graduation of high school, for example. The idea would be that you’re more aggressive when they’re two years old and less aggressive when they’re 18. I have seen the unfortunate truth where, you know, market-based 529s in 2008, kids couldn’t go to the school they chose because there was a market meltdown right when they wanted to go to college and use the money. That’s the worst-case scenario, but, you know, cycles happen in markets. And we have to remember where these dollars are being placed. So it’s a great tax strategy. But I never want the tax strategy to wag the dog. Never let the tail, tax tail wag the dog. There are other options. So, you know, for example, if you get, I’ll even use kind of a heretical term, student loans. If you get a subsidized federal student loan, that interest is being paid for by the government for four years or however long the child is a full-time student. And if you’re able to pack money somewhere else, say, savings account or brokerage account or somewhere, then you can take that money out when they graduate, wipe out the student loan, and you got a interest-free loan on your student going to school every year and you had that money outside of a tax-qualified plan, keeping it more liquid, more exit strategies, and so forth.

ANTHONY: Obviously, that requires some cash flexibility, but if you have it, that’s actually a excellent strategy.

MARK: So always get the tax deductions if you need it for your income, and that’s the best part of the 529. We’re just describing what happens after you’re doing your 529 basics. Another simple solution is to buy a piece of real estate in the town your kid is gonna go to school in, and then let them live there and then charge the roommates rent.

ANTHONY: Doesn’t that take some foresight, or are you saying buy the real estate upon admission?

MARK: Right, exactly. You buy it upon admission. You can even use your IRA money to do that if you have a self-directed IRA.

ANTHONY: Now, that’s interesting.

MARK: Another option is a dividend-paying whole life insurance, which is one of the best ways I’ve seen our most affluent clients save and prepare for kids’ college above and beyond what they can get from the 529.

ANTHONY: Explain how that works, please.

MARK: So in contrast with market-based 529s, whole life insurance is gonna give you an absolute, certain, guaranteed minimum amount that your kid would have on the day they plan to start college. So it’s not market-based. But it’s typically better yields than other cash equivalents out there, like better than CDs, better than money market accounts, and that sort of thing. So you’re not, at least part of your college portfolio, just like your retirement portfolio, should be guaranteed. That’s gonna be there, right, the kind of the foundation. The downside to the whole life is that there are no tax deductions for putting the money into the policy. You know, it’s strictly after-tax money going in. But like a Roth IRA, it all comes out totally tax-free. Both earnings and principal can be accessed without any taxes due.

ANTHONY: So we’re talking about the cash value of the account just getting funded, constantly funded. Is that what we’re talking about?

MARK: Correct, so you might fund it for 18 years until the child’s ready to go to school, for example. Or even two or three years if you’re in a late stage and you’re maxing out your 529 and you have a bunch of other money that’s, you know, gonna be exposed to the FAFSA. You know, ’cause again, every dollar that you have on your net worth statement negatively impacts your child getting access to grants and scholarships. One of the more interesting features of whole life insurance is that it does not count against your child when you’re filling out the FAFSA. In fact, they don’t even ask you for your cash value in your life insurance policies.

ANTHONY: Ooh, off-balance sheet, I love it.

MARK: Yeah, yeah. Still legal, but yeah, off-balance is always a good thing, off-balance sheet. So I don’t know, any other thoughts or ideas on that?

ANTHONY: No, you’ve already introduced several very cool and just very, you know, sideways-thinking concepts, the housing hack, and the whole life. Those are really great ideas.

MARK: Just do it all. I mean, you know, it doesn’t have to be either/or. It can be both/and, and it gives you the ability to give you some flexibility, and more importantly, your child the best education they can possibly get, which is learning about how money works before they even graduate college.

ANTHONY: And, Mark, that covers everything that I think my listeners needed to hear. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we wrap up here?

MARK: No, I’d be very honored to get to chat with folks if they’d like that, I suppose. I don’t know if I, is is all right if I share URL to our podcast?

ANTHONY: I was about to do that, but it’ll sound better coming from you

MARK: Oh, okay, great. Well, our podcast to learn more about some of these strategies and more, we did a whole series on college planning, how to pay for college without going broke, as this title is. Our podcast is Not Your Average Financial Podcast. You can go to notyouraveragefinancialpodcast.com. Click subscribe and we’d be happy to continue the conversation via podcast. And we have a Book an Appointment link there as well if you’d like to chat for 10 or 15 minutes to ask further questions. Be sure to include Anthony’s name and form when you fill out on our calendar, and I’ll be sure to send you a book compliments of Anthony.

ANTHONY: That’s very kind of you to offer that. I highly encourage everyone to, I mean, obviously, just from this, what, 20, 30-minute chat I’ve personally learned three, four, five things that I hadn’t known before. I am sure that you could benefit, really, from taking the time to sit down and chat with Mark. So make sure you get on that. Mark, thanks again so much for jumping on here with me. I think you’ve dropped a lot of knowledge that a lot of folks need, so thanks again.

MARK: Hey, it’s my pleasure. And, Anthony, keep up the good work that you’re doin’, helpin’ us know the very best ways to exit and also to stay in the lane as we go through life. It makes all the difference where your money lives, makes you live differently.

ANTHONY: Don’t forget you can listen to Mark at his podcast in Not Your Average Financial Podcast. And don’t forget to subscribe here at Simple Money Wins. Go to anthonyspark.com to join our email list for regular updates and special offers. Thanks again for listening. Talk to you later, bye.